本文首发于“电影书写札记”。图文版
作者：Isabel Sandoval 翻译：鞘翅目 来源：Flim Comment
作为戛纳史上第一部由女性单独执导获得金棕榈的影片，朱利亚·迪库诺（Julia Ducournau）的《钛》（Titane）将一个令人惊讶的、极致温柔的救赎故事嵌入了一段近段时间最激动人心的暴力人体恐怖故事中。影片讲述了一个嗜杀的、无道德的、怀孕的机械迷狂亚历克西娅（Alexia，由巴斯特基顿式的阿加特·罗素扮演）。在一次可怕的大屠杀之后，亚历克西娅开始逃亡，她将自己伪装成失踪多年的年轻人阿德里安（Adrien），并重新塑造自己的身体与身份。电影的后半部分以怪异诡谲的美追溯了这种转变，随着亚历克西娅与阿德里安的父亲文森特（Vincent）越来越亲近，文森特·林顿扮演的沉沦的消防队长贡献了今年最具感染力的的表演之一。这是一部关于创伤、家庭和扭曲的爱的大胆而脆弱的故事。
《自由的语言》（Lingua Franca）的导演伊莎贝尔·桑多瓦（Isabel Sandoval）代表《电影评论》（Flim Comment）与迪库诺聊了聊《钛》，以及导演本人对身体、欲望、共鸣、喜剧等的迷恋。
桑多瓦：人体的哪些方面最让你着迷？是否有特别的经历或记忆，形成你的这种着迷？
迪库诺：我的父母都是医生，晚上，他们会谈论他们的工作和病人。我是听着这些长大的，家里有医学书和杂志，这些在我的生活中无处不在。我发现，对于父母都是医生的人来说，这是很常见的事情。你在生命的一个相当早的阶段就对自己的死亡有意识。这使我一直以一种非常人性化的方式处事。我的父母是富有同情心的人，他们总是告诉我，"每个病人都是不同的，每个身体都是不同的。”我相信，人人死而平等，但同时，我们对自己的身体又有着独特的体验。
桑多瓦：我把最感性的和最感官的电影列了条目，《生吃》（Raw）和《钛》都在其中，因为它们在视觉上随着主角的欲望呈现而颤栗。你能告诉我更多关于欲望在你的作品中所扮演的角色，特别是在与凝视有关的方面，比如谁感觉到了它，谁被它刺激了，谁表达了它？你曾提到，在《钛》中，你试图颠覆通常主导我们如何看待女性身体的男性凝视。
迪库诺：当然。对我来说，凝视有社会建构的内涵，特别是在谈论男性凝视的时候，其实女性凝视也是。这种凝视在某种程度上是有偏见的，是被社会构建的。欲望可以摆脱这种偏见，对我来说，欲望即自由。我认为这正是我在我的两部作品中描绘的。当然，亚历克西娅的情况与死亡的驱动有很大关系。这与《生吃》中贾斯汀（Justine）案例的结构方式相反。《生吃》是一条双向街，有一个人与她分享无条件的爱与欲，超越任何性别或任何形式的性行为，因为他们彼此需要。在《生吃》中发生性关系是非常基础的，对我来说也是非常积极的。最后，她没有咬他，而是咬了自己。而不知为何，他并没有因此而感到害怕。
在《钛》中，这是一条单行道。最终，即使她与她的车有这种特殊的情感联结，它仍然是一辆车。它仍然是她不与自己的人性接触的一种方式。然而，在她决定成为阿德里安之后，她开始对文森特产生的情感是一个触发点，使她第一次在自己的生命中感受到人性，这是令人难以置信的自由。当所有的消防员在一起跳舞时，背景中播放着Future Islands 的“Lighthouse”，这一切都在欲望的层面上得到了体现。对我来说，这一幕是感性的、优雅的。在这一刻真正的优雅发生，她开始感受到超越她自我的东西，也就是对文森特的渴望。
桑多瓦：你曾说过，你在噩梦中找到了灵感。有什么你害怕讲的，或者你觉得还没有准备好讲的故事吗？
迪库诺：有什么故事是我不敢讲的吗？哈哈。如果有这样的故事——也许有，也许已经在我所有的电影中存在了，但我会拍一部关于它的电影。
桑多瓦：亚历克西娅Alexia、贾斯汀Justine和阿德里安Adrien的名字在《生吃》和《钛》中反复出现。这种重复的背后有什么特别的意图吗？你是在向原型致敬吗？
迪库诺：我认为这......是一切的基础。我从《少女初长成》（Junior）中的贾斯汀开始。她由Garance Marillier扮演（在《钛》中也扮演一个叫贾斯汀的角色），她就像我的小妹妹和我的缪斯女神，我崇拜的人。最初，贾斯汀——在《钛》中可能没那么严重，但仍然可能以一种非常讽刺的方式——是以萨德侯爵的《贾斯汀或美德的厄运》（Justine, ou Les Malheurs de la Vertu）命名。它讲述了一个年轻女孩的故事，她可以说是以非常扭曲的方式了解自己的欲望。对我来说，这部小说的讽刺意味令人难以置信地有趣，而且在今天仍然如此现代。
亚历克西娅，说实话，我只是在寻找一个带 “x”的名字。我需要一个 “x”，有许多符号上的原因，但也因为它让人感到亵渎和现代。我需要将她标记为一个在《生吃》中经历了颓废旅程的人，而且随着影片的进展，她实际上正在走向堕落，这个 “x”有一些越轨的感觉。
桑多瓦：那阿德里安呢？在《生吃》和《钛》中，他基本上都被消灭了。在《钛》中，亚历克西娅超越并寄生在阿德里安身上。
迪库诺：阿德里安就像一个被遗忘的英雄，一个影子英雄。在《生吃》中就是这样，他是影片的阳光。他是坚强的人：诚实、直率、有爱心。他的角色也许是我最喜欢写的一个。在某些方面，《钛》就像是对他的一种忧郁的致敬。在《钛》中，阿德里安是一个已经死去的人，但通过文森特和亚历克西娅的关系得到了重生。我喜欢让《生吃》中的阿德里安在《钛》中重生的想法。你看，我的人物都有相同的名字，因为我认为他们是同一个人的变体。
桑多瓦：在这些角色中，你最认同的是谁？
迪库诺：我认为我是《少女初长成》中的贾斯汀，我短片中的角色。我也是《生吃》中的阿德里安。其他的……在我所有的角色中，我几乎无处不在，因为他们全都能让我笑。《少女初长成》是一部青少年喜剧，而《生吃》中的阿德里安总是金句频出。他是那种轻松的有趣，我可以和那些让我笑的人产生共鸣。这是我的幽默感！
桑多瓦：说到幽默，《钛》明显比《生吃》中有更多轻松段落。我很好奇喜剧在你电影中的作用，特别是当它与暴力和血腥并列的时候。
迪库诺：我使用的工具是那些身体恐怖、喜剧、惊悚和戏剧类型，这些都是我感到舒服的工作领域，而且它们都能很好地结合在一起。当事情过于黑暗时，幽默有助于宣泄，并提供距离感：发笑有助于把事情看清楚，实际上是非常健康的。这就是我使用幽默的方式，让事情留一些喘息的机会。
这也是为角色创造共鸣的一个好方法，这对于亚历克西娅尤其重要，这个角色在影片开始时是不可能产生共鸣的，因为她根本没有表现出任何情感。房子里的疯狂杀戮，显然是一个喜剧场景，在这个黑暗场景之后，我们看到了她精神错乱的原因。她的身体告诉她 "你怀孕了"，而无法控制的事实使她脱离正常轨道。她身体中的某些东西已经发生了变化，而她再也无法忍受，这使她在影片中第一次有了像人一样的反应，你可以共鸣她的内心，她已怀孕的、疲惫不堪的身体，已无力杀死所有人，因为房子里有太多的人。由此可见，身体的喜剧是如何进入心灵的。
桑多瓦：这些天是什么在激励你？最近的电影有关注吗？
迪库诺：当我在拍电影的时候，我不看电影。我不想与自己的想法脱轨，也不想被我本可以说或我本希望做到的东西所干扰。但最近我报复性地看了很多在影院错过的电影。例如，我看了托马斯·温特伯格（Thomas Vinterberg）的《酒精计划》（Another Round），一部我一直期待看到的导演的电影。他善于描写人际关系中的灰色地带，这也是我想做的事情。他设法让你，作为一个观众，超越在电影开始时对一个角色的先入为主的想法。对一个导演来说，这是很难做到的事情——让观众和角色在一起，而他们又不知道如何去定位这个角色。我认为他这样做是非常勇敢和聪明的。我对《酒精计划》没有失望，最后一幕的舞蹈让我哭得很厉害。它是如此的优雅和美丽，麦斯·米科尔森（Mads Mikkelsen）是如此的在行，他以前就是一个舞蹈家。我真的非常喜欢这部电影。
桑多瓦：让·谷克多（Jean Cocteau）说过，电影创作者一遍又一遍地拍同样的电影，只是在重刷我们对艺术的痴迷。你认为在你的作品中，你不断回想到的一个想法或形象是什么，在每部新电影中又以什么不同的方式重新阐释它？
迪库诺：无论如何，我还是要不断地打开皮囊。我相信你必须是许多人才能成为一个人。我有一种非常存在主义的方式来对待生活。我认为，生活只是蜕皮并试图接近自己过程，它可以通过伤口，或其他什么东西。
伊莎贝尔·桑多瓦（Isabel Sandoval）已执导三部叙事长片，包括在2019年威尼斯电影节上首映并在2021年美国独立精神奖上获得约翰·卡萨维茨奖提名的《自由的语言》(Lingua Franca)。她目前正在制作她的第四部长片《Tropical Gothic》，该片在2021年柏林电影节联合制作市场获得发展奖。
The firstfilmdirected by a woman to win a soloPalme d’Or in the history of Cannes, Julia Ducournau’sTitanefolds a surprisingly moving, even tender story of redemption into one of the most thrillingly violent body horror dramas to grace screens in some time. Thefilmfollows a murderous, amoral, and pregnant mechanophile, Alexia (a Buster Keaton–like Agathe Rousselle), as she goes on the run following a gruesome mass killing. Disguising herself as Adrien, a young man who has been missing for years, Alexia sets to work remaking her body and identity. The second half of thefilmtraces this transformation in all its strange, disturbing beauty, as Alexia becomes increasingly close with Adrien’s father Vincent, a bereft fire chief played by Vincent Lindon in one of the year’s most affecting performances. An audacious and deeply vulnerable story about trauma, family, and the warped ways of love,Titaneopened on October 1 after screening at this year’s New YorkFilmFestival.
On behalf ofFilm Comment, Isabel Sandoval, director ofLingua Franca, chatted with Ducournau over Zoom aboutTitaneand its fascination with bodies, desire, empathy, comedy, and more.
What about the human body fascinates you the most? Was there a particular experience or memory that was formative in your attraction to the body?
Well, my parents are both doctors. At night they would talk about their jobs and their patients. I grew up hearing that, having medicine books at home, having magazines at home. It was everywhere in my life. It’s something that is pretty common, I’ve found, with people whose parents are both doctors: You have this sense of your own mortality at a pretty early stage in life. It has always been linked for me to a very human way of doing things. My parents are empathetic people, and they have always told me that “each patient is different, each body is different.” I believe that as far as our own mortality is concerned, we are all equal. But at the same time, we all have our own singular experience of our bodies.
I put together a list of the most sensuous and sensual movies.RawandTitaneare both on it because they visually thrum and quiver with the desire emanating from their protagonists. Can you tell me more about the role that desire—who feels it, who’s fueled by it, and who expresses it—plays in your work, especially in relation to the gaze? You’ve mentioned that inTitaneyou tried to subvert the male gaze that usually dominates how we see women’s bodies.
Absolutely. For me, the gaze has a connotation of social construct, especially when you’re talking about the male gaze, but the female gaze as well. This gaze is biased in some way that has been socially constructed. Desire is something that escapes that. For me, desire is freedom. I think that is very much what I have portrayed in both my features. Alexia’s case, of course, has to do very much with a death drive. It’s the opposite of how it is constructed in the case of Justine inRaw. InRaw, it’s a two-way street. She has someone with whom shares an unconditional love and desire beyond any gender or any form of sexuality, because they need each other. This is very foundational when they have sex inRaw, and very positive for me. In the end, she doesn’t bite him, she bites herself. And somehow he doesn’t get scared by that.
InTitane, it’s a one-way street. In the end, even though she has this special bond with her car, it remains a car. It remains a way for her to be not in touch with her own humanity. However, the desire that she starts feeling for Vincent after she has decided to become Adrien is a trigger for her to start feeling human for the first time in her life. It is incredibly freeing. It all comes together at the level of desire in the slow-motion scene with Future Islands’ “Lighthouse” playing in the background when all the firemen are dancing together. For me, this scene is sensual and graceful. Grace is really what happens in this moment for Alexia. She starts feeling something that is beyond her, which is her desire for Vincent.
You’ve said that you find inspiration in nightmares. What’s a story that you’re most afraid to tell, or that you don’t feel quite ready to tell yet?
Is there a story that I’m afraid to tell? [Laughter] Bah! If there is such a story—maybe there is, maybe they are already in all my films—I would make afilmabout it.
The names Alexia, Justine, and Adrien recur in both Raw andTitane. Is there any specific intent behind this repetition? Are you gesturing toward archetypes?
I think this… is the foundation of everything. I started with Justine inJunior. She is portrayed by Garance Marillier [who also plays a character named Justine inTitane], who’s like my little sister and my muse, someone I adore. Originally, Justine —and it’s probably a bit less so the case inTitane, but still maybe in a very ironic way—was named after the Marquis de Sade’sJustine, ou Les Malheurs de la Vertu. It tells the story of a young girl who learns about her desires in very, let’s say, twisted ways, to say the least. For me, the irony of this novel is incredibly funny and still so modern today.
Alexia, to be honest—I was just looking for a name with an “x” in it. I needed an “x” for many symbolic reasons, but also because it feels profane and modern. I needed this in order to mark her as someone who has a decadent journey throughRaw, and who is actually going downward as thefilmprogresses. There is something transgressive about that “x”.
What about Adrien? In both RawandTitane, he is essentially annihilated. InTitane, Alexia overtakes and inhabits Adrien.
Adrien is like a forgotten hero, a shadow hero. That’s the case inRaw, where he’s the sunlight of thefilm. He’s the strong one: honest, straightforward, loving. His character is maybe the one I enjoyed writing the most.Titane, in some ways, plays like a melancholy homage to him. InTitane, Adrien is someone who has died but is reborn through Vincent and Alexia’s relationship. I like the idea of having Adrien fromRawbeing reborn inTitane. You see, my characters bear the same names because I consider them to be mutations of the same person.
Of these characters, who do you identify with the most?
I think I am very much the Justine ofJunior, my shortfilm. I find myself in Adrien inRaw, as well. The rest… I’m pretty much everywhere, in all my characters, because they make me laugh, all of them.Junioris a teen comedy, and Adrien has great punchlines inRaw. He’s funny and on the light side, and I can relate to people who make me laugh. That’s my sense of humor!
Speaking of humor, there’s noticeably more moments of levity inTitanethan inRaw. I’m curious about the role of comedy in your films, especially when juxtaposed with violence and gore.
The tools that I use are those of the body horror, comedy, thriller, and drama genres. These are the areas I feel comfortable working within, and they all go well together. Humor helps with catharsis when things are too dark, and provides distance: being able to laugh helps put things in perspective and is actually very healthy. That’s how I use humor, to let things breathe a little bit.
It’s also a great way to create empathy for your character. This was especially important with Alexia, a character who is impossible to relate to at the start of thefilm, because she doesn’t show any emotion whatsoever. The killing spree in the house, which is clearly a comedy scene, comes after this dark scene where we see the cause of her derangement. Her body is telling her “you’re pregnant,” and the fact that she can’t control it derails her. Something in her body has changed, and she just can’t take it anymore. It makes her react like a human being for the first time in thefilm. You can empathize with her mind, but through her body, which is now pregnant and tired and doesn’t have the strength to kill everyone, because there are just too many people in the house. So you see how the comedy of the body can get to the mind.
What inspires you these days? Do you follow a lot of recent cinema?
While I’m making afilm, I don’t watch movies. I don’t want to derail my own thoughts and I don’t want to be disturbed by something I could have said or something I wish I had done. But recently I got my revenge by watching a lot of movies that I’d missed in theaters. For example, I watchedAnother Roundby Thomas Vinterberg, a director [whose films] I am always looking forward to seeing. He’s good at portraying the grey zones in relationships, which is also something I’m trying to do. He manages to make you, as an audience member, go beyond the preconceived ideas you have about a character at the start of thefilm. It’s something that for me, as a director, is very hard to do—keeping the audience with the character without them really knowing how to pinpoint that character. I think it’s really brave and smart, the way he does it. I was not disappointed withAnother Roundbecause the last scene, of the dance, got me crying like crazy. It’s so graceful and beautiful, and Mads Mikkelsen is so on top of things because he was a dancer before. I really, really love thisfilm.
Jean Cocteau said filmmakers make the same films over and over again, and we’re just reshuffling the deck of our artistic obsessions. What do you think is the one idea or image you keep coming back to in your work, reinterpreting it in a different way with each newfilm?
One way or another, I’m still going to keep opening the skin. I believe you have to be many to be one. I have a very existentialist way of taking on life. I think that life is only shedding skins, trying to get closer to yourself. It can be through wounds, or other things.
Isabel Sandoval has directed three narrative features, includingLingua Franca, which premiered at the 2019 VeniceFilmFestival and was nominated for the John Cassavetes Award at the 2021 Independent Spirit Awards.She is currently working on her fourth feature,Tropical Gothic, which won a development prize at the 2021 Berlinale Co-Production Market.
